Curse

Dimitri_Stucoff · Oct 30, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

I would rather have a player with a good attitude and willingness to learn and listen rather than some "leetsause" peice of .... who thinks they know everything and yells at everyone. Let me share to of my experiances in one of the most unforgiving areas in the game, DOA... before the aspect got taken away in easy mode. Foundary, need I say more? Anyway the group I was in had a tank, he was a bit green behind the ears but he did a good job in my book at doing his job. However, this tard monk in the group did not think so. Every other sentence out of his mouth was an insult to the tank, the tank got fed up after about an hour of this and stole the "leet" players titan gem drop until he apologized. The player apologized got his gem back, promptly called us pve #$@@ (insert a string of explitives there) and flaunted he was a member of a gvging guild (which sucks by the way) and raged. We attempted to continue, and failed. Nothing was gained and it really really turned me off to pugs in general as it made us all miserable the entire time. He was a decent monk, still on my ignore list to this day, but I rather have a slightly less experianced player with better attitude. Situation two: take a team of guildies down to the same place. NONE of them have been before, most are a bit green to guild wars in general, no vent, TS or any of that rubbish. Heck I even take a MESMER, when all that mesmer hate was going on. I explained what we were doing, what was happening, what to watch out for, and they listened and executed the plan. It was a bit slow moving, as they did not always get it completely right (but they made the effort and learned from each experiance) at first but towards the end we really started rolling and got our gems no problem. All and all everyone left happy and infact wanted to do it again when they had time.

Moral of the story, play games to have fun, not to listen to some idiot moan and groan about players making small mistakes. It is alright to point them out incase they did not know. There is a difference in a learning experiance and simply being an !@#hat. In the end it weighs down to an hour and half of pain and agnoy or 2 hours of fun. Which would you choose? I know I would take the fun.

Grasping Darkness · Oct 30, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

aptitude
thats cool some people like to babysit noobs but i dont. i like to do my own things in gw pve solo mostly and then i go pvp and don't like losing. i dont like to lose. if theres assholes in the group they're either good or bad at gw. the gw community isnt as black and white as you put it. but to stay to your topic, i'd take a bunch of capable arseholes over a bunch of grinding noobs any day

Ctb · Oct 30, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

If you're not trying to win

Quote:

You play to win because of the fact that winning and doing well is fun, and in some cases, for the real-life prizes.

The phrase "play to win" generally has specific connotations attached to it. The idea that it generally conveys is one where the person is playing only for the purpose of winning, eschewing all other facets of play. The person who goes ballistic, screaming and raging in pitiful digital vengeance when someone gets a bad pull and wipes a party or someone makes a mistake and costs a PvP team a victory.

"Playing to win" is a specific phrase, in other words, that denotes the idea that the only purpose in playing a game is to be the victor. That, to me, is the hieght of futility in a video game that will, someday, go offline and take all of the temporary digital "accomplishments" of its players along with it.

These people were "playing to win" and are the types I will just never understand in all my years on this planet:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

As soon as the map loaded they run over to the warp circle or gate and wait there. I'm back on the spawn point re-arranging skills. They are furiously pinging the warp circle and cussing me out for not joining them IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!

I don't care if those people are the best in the game and being on their team will guarantee me elite spoils and legendary fame across the Guild Wars universe. If I'm in a team like that all of a sudden, I'm going to "play for fun" and actively undermine them for my own amusement, because winning isn't fun if you have to play with impotent 12 year olds with entitlement complexes in order to do it :\

Quote:

The better question is why would anyone play a video game to lose? When you go out and purchase a new game do you pick up the case and say "lulz I wonder what font the game over message is in"?

False dichotomy. There are other options. Don't be obtuse.

Saphrium · Oct 30, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

And yet competitive people who lose may lack the attitude to move on from it, and 'waste time' wondering why things went wrong. Anyone who plays the game and ignores the importance of a good attitude towards things will never accept loss, and that's bad for all people that they involve themselves with. People who don't play to win will play for the experience. Unlike so many people who take the game for granted and use it to escape the troubles of the world - I don't, and I'm just happy to be able to play this game in the first place. Social interaction is in many ways, better than competitiveness. Attitude makes all the difference.

They both have there kicks, but I like attitude better.

A player's adaptability and competitiveness are two different things, a good player always learn from his/her mistakes and always use his knowledge and wisdom to solve problems, a skilled player never "waste time wondering why things went wrong"; instead you should argue that they have the "drive and dedication" to solve problems which general laid-back attitude players have not.

And try eternal grove HM with pugs, you will want aptitude over attitude after a few failures, after all, aptitude gets things done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

The phrase "play to win" generally has specific connotations attached to it. The idea that it generally conveys is one where the person is playing only for the purpose of winning, eschewing all other facets of play. The person who goes ballistic, screaming and raging in pitiful digital vengeance when someone gets a bad pull and wipes a party or someone makes a mistake and costs a PvP team a victory.

"Playing to win" is a specific phrase, in other words, that denotes the idea that the only purpose in playing a game is to be the victor. That, to me, is the hieght of futility in a video game that will, someday, go offline and take all of the temporary digital "accomplishments" of its players along with it.

These people were "playing to win" and are the types I will just never understand in all my years on this planet:

I don't care if those people are the best in the game and being on their team will guarantee me elite spoils and legendary fame across the Guild Wars universe. If I'm in a team like that all of a sudden, I'm going to "play for fun" and actively undermine them for my own amusement, because winning isn't fun if you have to play with impotent 12 year olds with entitlement complexes in order to do it :\

False dichotomy. There are other options. Don't be obtuse.

The ultimate point a skilled player is trying to make, is not I-am-better-than-you elitism.

If I may quote from one of favorite my professors; when you solve an equation, but the solution is a mess, it is most-likely wrong, but if you solve an equation with clear and clean solutions, then it is most-likely right.

For everything, there is always a few right ways to do it and a few wrong ways to do it, the wrong ways require more effort, less efficient use of resources, cost more time, and "less harmonic" therefore messy. People train and discipline themselves to be good, to be efficient, to be knowledgeable and to learn and adapt from their own and others' mistakes. Going backwards, even in life, you have people who don't care as it is not his job, not his work, not his responsibility to cooperate with others, learn to be skilled and therefore not be able to help others, ultimately a departure from excellence and disciplined harmony.

A car has many parts, if engine has the drive power but requires a high temper, we always have radiator to cool it down, try a radiator who says:"you know what? I work fine in home appliance section or as a home heater, life is larger than being the engines' babysitter, I prefer to work with some parts who has good attitude, so I don't have to be working so hard or be frustrated at some stupid and arrogant part like the engine." Then you have a dysfunctional team, how is that gonna achieve anything, in any field in the world? Why should we encourage that attitude in any part of our lives, whether it is in a game or not? Substitute that logic with monks who melees with hammers and warriors carrying staff to cast meteor showers, if no one is doing what they are supposed to do, the team breaks that harmony, and the problems this brings, is more revealing when going towards more challenging situations.

Remember if a person knows things, you learn from him because it takes you to excellence, he saves you time and effort to avoid mistakes, even though you do not have the experience and expertise to understand how. Respect it, learn it, use it, appreciate it.

Enko · Oct 30, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Attitude.

People who call others stupid, dumb etc because they use cheap items/armor are just knobs. I then retaliate by showing the so called "rich person" a full trade window of ecto or a stack or 2 of armbraces

they soon shut up.

heh i usually just continue on as before but i quietly let out my mini kanaxai or panda out . ..

don't really understand why people think money is all that in this game when you can get pretty much all perfect armor and weapons for less than 20k if you want to ignore looks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

GW is extremely (impossible for most?) hard to get money, but some games you can. CS is pretty easy to make money from for example.

Servers should not go dark, there is no mention of that when buying. I'd sue them after 28 days.

I don't see the point of playing just to lose, just like you don't go for a cap signet, to die 100 times as you get to the boss.

umm don't all online games come with a warning that experience may change with online play? having the servers shut down would be included in that i think . ..

shadows of hob · Oct 30, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Some people here think that 'wanting to win' is a bad thing and is the same as flaming everybody you think is bad. This is NOT true. There is a huge difference between the people playing for a win. Some should go of their high horses, but most of them enjoy what they are doing and have fun with other people.

If you like to spend hours to teach a noob what skills to take, fine, of course.

Ctb · Oct 30, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

The ultimate point a skilled player is trying to make, is not I-am-better-than-you elitism.

Yes, but the thread is about a clear dichotomy: if you had to chose someone with a bad attitude but great skill, or someone with low skill but a great attitude.

My point is just that I prefer to avoid arseholes no matter how "accomplished" they are at the game. If you can have the best of both worlds, that's even better!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enko

don't really understand why people think money is all that in this game when you can get pretty much all perfect armor and weapons for less than 20k if you want to ignore looks.

I have a bizarre mix of Ascalon, Knight's, and Gladiator's armor on my oldest character, and it's dyed all sorts of weird, clashing colors because of times I had 10g dyes in my inventory and needed space for more valuable drops.

Doesn't bother me any if people think I'm a broke n00b. I'd rather spend all my money on Guild Hall "drinking parties" anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I'd sue them after 28 days.

You'd lose.

The game WILL shut down some day. It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when" because it's simply pragmatic. Some day there won't be enough players left to make it worthwhile to keep the servers running. And, while I'm no lawyer, I think you'd have a hard time convincing a judge that after several years of gameplay you hadn't gotten a reasonable value out of your $50 purchase.

Quote:

There is a huge difference between the people playing for a win.

Yea, but the question that started the thread draws a clear dichotomy that I think you have to keep in mind to keep a clear context for those responses. Given either a jerk or a joke, which do you prefer?

I've met lots of people in the game that are old players with lots of experience and are quite pleasant, but we're not talking about them right now

Phaern Majes · Oct 30, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

I prefer the people like me, who just don't talk regardless of what happens. Oh wait...thats what I have heroes for!

Saphrium · Oct 30, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Yes, but the thread is about a clear dichotomy: if you had to chose someone with a bad attitude but great skill, or someone with low skill but a great attitude.

My point is just that I prefer to avoid arseholes no matter how "accomplished" they are at the game. If you can have the best of both worlds, that's even better!

I am in no way trying to alter your opinion. But my point stands; in-game attitude is appreciated in both parties, while skills are essential.

Ctb · Oct 30, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

But my point stands; in-game attitude is appreciated in both parties, while skills are essential.

I don't think I get the point your driving at. Are you saying that, forced to choose, you would rather have skill over attitude?

Government Flu · Oct 30, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Attitude doesn't really bother me because it's an online game, so anyone who says anything insulting or annoying has very little base to stand on, and good players are usually more concerned with executing their skills and spells as quickly and efficiently as possible. Very few have the ability to type while being part of a challenging mission or elite area and since I don't own vent, I don't hear players either...in the rare occasions I do PUG.

With that in mind, I'd choose skill over attitude anytime. It's true a lot of elite players are arrogant bastards but a good percentage are also very nice. Plus, I'm sure others have mentioned it but I'll end by saying that attitude and skill isn't a clearly defined line.

You can have newbies who are very polite or extremely rude, and the same goes for the veterans out there.

Age · Oct 30, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

I would say PvP is Aptitude and PvE is Attitude.

Mohnzh · Oct 30, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Attitude.

I remember needing a couple of bonuses on a few missions in Kryta back before heroes. I had tried to PUG with some people that knew the missions. They kept blowing off the bonuses even though they said they were m+b all the way. I finally got a group together of people who had never done the mission before. They were clearly not very experienced, but they were very eager to get the bonus and followed instructions to a T. It may have been a little slower, but it was flawless.

I also remember giving up on the final mish in Prophecies for so long because I went in with one group that had two people who thought they were awesome and were bragging about their accomplishments. They ended up screaming and cussing at each other the whole time, never once targeting and enemy. We wiped on the second mob. If that is what a skilled anti-social player is like, I will choose the attentive, curteous, teachable noob.

I have frequently wiped on missions with noobs, but I have ALWAYS enjoyed wiping with a noob group more than succeeding with an anti-social group. The noobs are always ready to pick themselves up and go again and fix whatever happened. Nothing in PvE is hard, so there is an extremely small number of people that cannot learn what needs to be learned.

Saphrium · Oct 30, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I don't think I get the point your driving at. Are you saying that, forced to choose, you would rather have skill over attitude?

I can't make an argument without providing the context.

In a given situation like failed a mission 20 times because of pugging with a bunch of really nice and fun newbies, don't you start to wonder how to beat this mission the right way? Wouldn't you start to consider stand a know-it-all asshole (provided he does know-it-all, or at least more than you) for a round to get through this mission? Wouldn't you consider that the possibility that you can gain this knowledge to help other newbies? Wouldn't you also think that it was your prejudice against anyone with skills but irritating personalities has stopped you from advancing and enjoying more content of this game?

Sub Frost · Oct 30, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Given your two examples, no doubt Attitude.

But has someone else already pointed out, things usually are not that "black and white".

I've met load's of skilled players that were friendly, helpful, 100% competent, and on the opposite lot's of "newbies" that were stuck up, unwilling to learn, pretty much being a a-ho..

Olim Chill · Oct 30, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphrium

I can't make an argument without providing the context.

Exactly. It's not so cut and dried. But do I think a bad attitude will contribute more toward failure than success.

Dante the Warlord · Oct 30, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

I think the real issue becomes, what would you rather have, having fun or playing competitvely and winning. IF you are with a noob, chances are that you will lose, but it might be fun to have a lackey :-). They rile me up sometimes since they set the entire team back, and result in me having to redo things OVER and OVER.

When playing with those snotty powerful players, its really fun to win :-). Sometimes id rather be a kiss ass and win with a good player just to get it over with after playing a mission 1000 times, the point of the game just gets boring. Pretty much Thunderhead peak in my case.

In the end i stand by my former comment, Aptitude is to get something done, but you should always try something first with some nice friendly people and see where it takes you. If you don't succeed get an experienced player to help you and be nice. It really depends on patience for this.

Terra Xin · Oct 31, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphrium

A player's adaptability and competitiveness are two different things, a good player always learn from his/her mistakes and always use his knowledge and wisdom to solve problems, a skilled player never "waste time wondering why things went wrong"; instead you should argue that they have the "drive and dedication" to solve problems which general laid-back attitude players have not.

And try eternal grove HM with pugs, you will want aptitude over attitude after a few failures, after all, aptitude gets things done.

Adaptability stems from attitude, aptitude preaches capability. You're talking about players who express both attitude and aptitude towards the task in front of them.

'Laid back attitude' is a 'type' of attitude, not the definition, which was what I was aiming for.

The point that I was making is that aptitude does not reflect a person's attitude towards dealing with the things that go wrong, otherwise if they do, then they also have a good attitude towards things. I think that if players have both then you'll always want to have them on your team. However, if they're going to act derogatory about it then its not worth the time, irregardless of their drive and dedication that they have to the task at hand.

Sure, players with a lot of aptitude will learn how to fix their mistakes and do it right for the first couple of times, but once they find out what the routine is, it'll be "You st00pid n00b don't go that way. This group is full of idiots I'm leaving!!" A lot of the trouble comes because too many people are impatient and think that if even a little thing goes wrong, that it's a huge waste of time. Aptitude can't teach you how to learn from those things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Yes, but the thread is about a clear dichotomy: if you had to chose someone with a bad attitude but great skill, or someone with low skill but a great attitude.

*shakes head* This thread is about which is more important. It doesn't say that you still can't value the other part of the two. Both aptitude and attitude could be held highly by many people, but if each is able to make the judgment about which one they would appreciate more, then that would be the goal of the thread. This thread doesn't ask how highly people favour one over the other, but just to make one of them distinctive.

Although I favour attitude more, given the two choices that you have provided, it would depend on the task at hand. If it was difficult I'd pick the anus but I would feel really reluctant in doing so, and I won't be having a good time. Otherwise it will be the useless one with the good attitude, and the mission would just be that more challenging, which is probably a good thing.

nechronius · Oct 31, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Good intentions doesn't always mean victory, and some people will never get better beyond "decent." While fine for casual play, when the chips are down and you need great support for a difficult area, the people with the best attitude do not mean certain victory.

Having a rotten personality generally doesn't lead to great success anyway, no matter how good you are, when you're teaming with others. In which case they will take heroes/henches and do it themselves anyway. However one can argue that driven people will often "turn off" others with their determination for improvement.

It's never easy to chose one or the other, but I'll side towards attitude.

AxeMe · Oct 31, 2007, 12:49 PM // 12:49

I've played since the beginning of the game - back then we were all, of course, new.

After all that time I've discovered that some of the people that seemed skilled but an enormous jerk when I first played with them have turned into the best and most loyal game friends.

(I'm sure not saying that all jerks are talented, nor am I saying that talented jerks always change as you get to know them. Plenty of stubborn and arrogant players have no reason to be. But some really talented people have attitude and it's well-earned).

Exceptional skills and intelligence, in the game or in life, often come with attitude. And once you get past that attitude they can be the most interesting people once you get to know them.